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Increase the participants in the younger ages
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TOPIC: Increase the participants in the younger ages

Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years, 1 month ago #176

Why not increase the number of participants in the younger ages. For example look at the breaker boys GS/SL. 50 and 45 participants isn't that many how about increasing it to 60 each? I'm sure you can get through a few more riders. Why not give more kids the chance to compete? I realize it's late but why not?

The older groups have a ton of participants why not increase it for the younger kids?
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #200

  • momonboard
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I agree! It looks like in some age groups (ruggies) you have less riders than expected. All ruggies qualified got spots, and there's still room for more. Why not take those numbers and give them to another group that turned out larger than expected? It won't change the overall number of riders. Grommet boys slopestyle, for example, has only 40 invites for a huge group.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #201

  • momonboard
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OK. Now that I browse some other groups, there are more spots not taken in some of the "Older-adult" groups, and I also see there are very huge groups of qualifiers in the Men. boys, brkr.boys, youth boys, etc. I imagine it's a very hard process to predict these numbers, but now that we see, can you give some of these spots over to these under-represented large groups?
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #203

  • Zen
Do the powers that be look at this and make adjustments at this stage?
Last Edit: 5 years ago by .
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #207

  • joncasson
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For a detailed explanation as to how we determined slots for each age/discipline/gender- please see my post under the forum topic Comp Groups and Daily Schedule of Events. When we figured out the slots in mid-February, we were using total member numbers as of that time. As I stated in the previous explanation- it IS entirely possible that the end of the season numbers differ greatly from when we did our calculations. So, I went through each category and filled in the final numbers to see if we needed adjustments. Only two categories had a significant difference and required adjustments. We are trying to set standards that we can use for many years so our qualifications are objective and transparent. The goal is to stage a quality National Championship event with the best riders in the country. If we start making adjustments just because there is room, we compromise those goals.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #208

  • jhayden
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I agree with Jon...the numbers should stay where they are. Nationals should be for the top kids. USSA nationals are for overall leaders only and do not give slots per age group. If anyone can go to nationals then you lose competitive spirit and the drive to improve for next year...USASA Nationals are already extremely inclusive compared to other alpine disciplines.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #210

  • momonboard
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Yes, exactly! It should be for the top kids. In a group of 278 or so, qualified riders, and only 70 slots,(youth men, for example) surely the 71st-80th NR riders are still "top" riders. And yes, I agree, not everyone should get an invite...but that is exactly what happened in ruggie boys, senior women, mstr. women, and legend women slopestyle for example. In some other groups, roughly 80-90% of qualified riders got invites. (look at legend men, master men, ruggie girls, grommet girls) I was just suggesting that the spots allotted for some of these smaller groups that weren't taken after all riders in that group were invited could be given over to another group. We're only talking about a handful of spots, not hundreds. 65 spots for Breaker boys represents 24% of the qualified riders. that's quite a difference from 100%. Just something to think about.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #211

  • jhayden
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There are 33 regions. In my opinion there shouldn't be much more than 33 people per category. I agree that we should not have categories where most of the kids get invites.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #212

I agree with your explanation but I also agree with momonboard (see quotes from below). If your going to make it fair for everyone no matter what division you are in you need to take a percent what ever that is. Taking 100% from one division and then taking 24% is probably not the best way to promote the sport. People look for fairness even though life isn't fair. You can't get any more consistent and fair than percentages. Punishing someone for not being in the correct age/gender bracket isn't the right thing to do.

Plus as far as sustainability and promoting the sport I would assume you would want the biggest divisions having the highest percent of participants not the other way around. Kids with brothers and sisters will make you more money than the one adult not only for USASA but the restaurants, gas stations, hotels and everything else people do on vacation. Kids and families will be around for years to come where adults will move on.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #213

  • Zen
If the point is to get the "top riders" we must take into account that some regions are stronger then others. You MUST allow NR to play a part in qualifying. If we have 33 regions with only 33 spots how is that bringing "the top kids?" Kid two from a strong series maybe better then many of the number one kids in other regions and not get in? I think NR should be as big if not a bigger part of determining who qualifies.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #214

  • joncasson
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Mastercraft- what percentage do you suggest? Keep in mind we try not to run more than 160 people through any venue on any given day. If you take 50% of each group, we'd end up with 140 Junior Men in SS alone. If you take 10% across the board, you'd end up with 1 or 2 people in the smaller divisions. We cant simply set a percentage or we'd end up too many or too little in certain groups. We also have to allow for each regional series to send their series winner- its one of the most basic precepts of USASA's system.

Its really a complicated process with no absolutely perfect answer. Every parent or coach of a kid who is a few spots out thinks we should expand that group, but USASA has to look at the big picture of all the groups, all the regions and the membership as a whole.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #215

Your right no perfect answer. I think that the winner or the runner-up gets the automatic bid like you have. The issue is the at large bids.

I guess you have 33 series in the nation according to jhayden. So you have 33 automatic bids. Whether that is the Champion or the Runner-Up.
No matter what you'll have 33 people in an event or less if no one goes from that series.

The next question is what percent minus the 33 series winners do you take? Say you have 50 people for a category. Say the number is 30 percent for the at large bids. 30 percent of 17 is 5. You would add 5 at large bids to the total for that category which is 38. If the champions or runner ups don't go then that spot is given to an at large bid. So you'll still get 38 people in the category.

Another example
150 participants 33 automatic bids. 150 - 33 = 117. 30% of 117 is 35 so the total riders would be 68 for that event. If the winner or second place doesn't go then it goes to your national ranking.

My issue isn't with the way you choose them it's with the percentage and being in the wrong/right group.

33 would be the minimum unless it's less which does happen.

Automatic and National Overalls would not be added into the formula since it's such a small number.

Does that make since?

I would also do something for the people that only get 2 events in a discipline. They have to chance to go to nationals if the winner of the event goes. They could come in second in 2 events and wont go because the kid with 3, 4th place finishes would go before them according to national rankings. Traveling 8 hours one way for that 3rd events is hard on people.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #222

After looking around at the other divisions the breaker boys aren't even close to the percent of the other age groups. It's your largest group followed by Youth Men which has more slots available.

Mens open has 100 open slots and only 32 to 93 competitors.
BX James has 83 competitors and 50 spots or 60% get in.
BX Breaker boys has 193 competitors and 60 spots or 31% get in.
SS Breaker boys has 273 competitors and 65 spots or 23% get in.
HP Breaker boys has 163 competitors and 55 spots or 33% get in.
SL/GS Breaker boys has 143 competitors and 45/50 spots or 27/30% get in.
Breaker Girls 80% in SS, 74% in HP, 60% in BX, 71% in GS and 71% in SL.
Skier Boys BX 86 competitors and 50 spots or 58% get in.
Skier Boys HP/SS 86 competitors and 35 spots or 41% get in.

Youth Men and Breaker Boys are somewhat close in numbers up to 50 people off in some events but the Youth Men get anywhere from 5 to 10 more slots depending on the event. Youth Men get up to 50% of the people invited in some events.

So my point is why not let 10 for SS/HP/SS and 15 in SL/GS more breaker boys which is over all your largest group but not the largest invites. To me that doesn't make since. The biggest group should have the most people invited.

Some people will say that waters it down but it doesn't water it down to the point of all the other divisions. 100 spots and only 32 competitors that is watered down.

All you have to do is invite more people to even it out.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #223

  • littleheck
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also for junior men we only have 45 spots for halfpipe, which isn't many at all, and dosent make since seeing as alot of the groups have alot more, and i can't figure out why.they could increase to 50 and let a few more riders in.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #224

  • joncasson
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Did you actually read my original post from 5 weeks ago as to how slots were determined? You just restated the formulas I posted there.

We already did all the same calculations you just did. But we did em for every discipline, age division and gender. Originally with numbers from February and again with the final numbers in March. We then have to take those numbers and piece them together into a manageable competition schedule.

Mastercraft- If we add 10 slots to Breaker Boys SS, what group do we take slots away from? We're already over our intended venue cap for SS in that competition group.

Littleheck- In Junior Men HP, we already adjusted slots from 40 to 45 based on a significant difference between Feb numbers and final numbers.

Once again- this was all explained in my earlier post. Please read it.

www.usasa.org/index.php?option=com_kunen...p;catid=17&id=39
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #227

I look at your post from Feb and it makes since for your numbers.

I also understand that you only want to go up to 160 riders in a day. So add 5 to SS to put them at 70 like the division above them. 5 is better than none when you're talking about the huge numbers that we are. You have to be willing to make exceptions to the rules when you have such large numbers. I wouldn't take any spots away from any of the other groups that day I would just deal with 5 more kids in the breaker boys division. Start 5 minutes earlier and finish 5 minutes later.

I would also add at least 10 more riders to the Breaker Boys Slalom and Giant Slalom to get them somewhat closer to the same percentage as the rest of the divisions. Like your article points out those go fast and it doesn't involve judging.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #228

littleheck

The group you are talking about has only 92 competitors and 45 slots so 49% of the competitors get in to me that is allot.

In breaker boys for the HP only 33% get in.

So in your division it much easier to get in.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #230

  • joncasson
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Have you been to Slopestyle at Nationals yet?

160 riders barely gets done in time as it is. There have been days when Slopestyle hasnt finished until almost 5pm in the afternoon. Conditions deteriorate, kids get tired, quality of event goes down, injuries are more likely. That is where the 160 comes from. Start 5 minutes earlier? we already push the limits on times, lifts open at 7:30 and practice begins around 8am when the snow is rock hard. End later? Already pressed to get the event done in time as it is. Add an injury delay (hopefully not) and we dont get it done.

The numbers in GS and SL ARE consistent according to the scale I outlined. Total Breaker Boys competitors this season were 150 in GS and 143 in SL. 50 slots in GS and 45 in SL. Around 32% for both. Furthermore- the fields arent even filled yet. There have been over 20 declines in both GS/SL so far, so we're actually going way further down the rankings anyway.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #231

  • ssamuels1
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Ultimately, we have to leave these numbers to the judgment of USASA, so I won't question the final decision.

Something does seem off, though, with the slots for breaker boys SL (45) and GS (50). Total competitors for SL and GS breaker boys are 143 and 148, respectively. Total SL and GS competitors for menehune are 105 and 114, respectively. Total SL and GS competitors for youth are 101 and 106. So breakers have 35-40 more national competitors in each event than either menehune or youth. But the slots for breakers are the same as menehune and they are 5 less in both than youth. Seems like breakers should have gotten the extra 5 slots.

Again, though, I know there are other considerations and so I'll accept the final decision. John and Jason have a very difficult task, and I appreciate the effort and hard work they put into making the Nationals a successful event.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #232

27% and 30% isn't even close to everyone else Breaker girls are at 71%.

So why not invite some of the kids that only got to compete in 2 events because that is all the series had. They came in 2nd but wont get invited because they only had 2 events.

So your right you are going down the list in people with 3 events but not 2 events. Some of those 2 event kids might go.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #233

  • joncasson
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You obviously DID NOT read all of my post. The slots were determined on a sliding scale based on total competitors in EACH age division, gender and discipline. This is the scale we used.

1 - 25 90-100%
25-50 75%
50-75 60%
75-100 50%
100-150 40%
150-200 30%
200+ 25%

There were 55 Breaker girls in SS when we originally did the slots, so 60% = 33 slots. We rounded up to 40 because there were 40 competitors last year and didnt want to dramatically cut that group. There were 47 Breaker Girls in HP. 75% = 35 slots. As it turns out, every Breaker Girl in both SS and HP in the country was offered a slot due to declines so slot numbers were irrelevant anyway. We cannot predict how many declines we're going to get- This year, declines are way up over last year.

There is waaayyy more to this straight percentages of competitors.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #234

  • momonboard
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well, now that opens up a whole new can of worms! You can't go back and change the rules for the season and qualifying for Nationals in the first place. If you want to change that, it's something to think about for next season, not now.

i know you guys did the best you could, and probably thought about all these issues long before we did, and came up with the best plan for Nationals numbers. We all appreciate that!

My original point was to somehow allow those spots that weren't taken in some groups to go to another group. (not adding to the overall number of riders planned for) I see that you would only be able to do that if you stay with the Competition Group set up for that day. In other words, 3 ruggie spots not taken couldn't be given to Breaker boys, since they're in a different comp. group, and would add to the time needed to complete the event. Having said that, is it possible to give over empty (not taken) spots to another age group, as long as that age group is in the same Comp. group? For Example, if there are 4 spots not taken from Master & Legend women(who are over 100% invited), can you give those over to the largest group (Grommet boys at 47% invited) within that Competition group? This stays within the timeframe you allotted for each day/event.

My comments here are only to help perfect a very intricate model, and I give them with the utmost respect for what you all have created! I hope they are received in that spirit:)
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #235

I did read it and they way I took it was 100-150 is 40%. If my math is correct 40% of 148 is 60 participants and 40% of 145 is 64 participants.

So what you are doing is taking the lowest number possible and using that to divide by not the actual number of participants which is the way it should be done.

No reason to yell.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #236

  • ssamuels1
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In case my prior post got lost in the flurry.

Breaker boys has 45 SL and 50 GS slots. Total competitors for SL and GS breaker boys are 143 and 148, respectively. Total SL and GS competitors for menehune are 105 and 114, respectively. Total SL and GS competitors for youth are 101 and 106. So breakers have 35-40 more national competitors in each event than either menehune or youth. But the slots for breakers are the same as menehune and they are 5 less in both than youth. Totals for Group 6 in SL and GS are at 120 and 130.

Just pointing this out.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #246

Are you going to follow the guidelines that USASA set and allow 40% to enter the contest? Are you going to increase the participants for Breaker Boys in the SL/GS since you are way below the 160 participants in a day?

All the numbers fit within your requirements. So why not bump it up to GS 65 and SL 60 in each of the events? It's the easiest event to add participants to. You say it will get watered down yet you are allowing up to 100% in other division/events. It is your largest group of contestants they should be the largest group of participants.

The only thing that is missing is is the correct amount of participants to the equation.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #247

  • ssamuels1
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As momonboard stated so well, "My comments here are only to help perfect a very intricate model, and I give them with the utmost respect for what you all have created! I hope they are received in that spirit."

Would you consider bumping the breakers SL/GS slots by 5 each so that they match the number for youth men? There just seems to be some inconsistency between menehune, youth and breaker given the total numbers of competitors in each group.

Thanks for considering.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #249

  • joncasson
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When we established the slots in February, there were 159 Breaker boys in GS and 157 in SL. They are now at 149 and 143. We're not going to increase their slots by 10 when their overall numbers went down. That doesnt make any sense does it?

Its not about simply filling the fields with as many body's as we can take. As of right now, there have been 23 declines in GS and 24 in Slalom. We are getting close to reaching the midway point in Nationals Rankings and over 40% of the entire group has received an invite and the fields are still not entirely filled.

The answer is no, we will not be increasing the slots for Breaker Boys GS and SL.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #252

If you're not going follow what your post said back in February can you change it to reflect your new stance since it's much different from you said back then. That way people aren't confused by what they read verse the reality. People also signed up and competed with the knowledge that 40% not 28% would be invited to Nationals as indicated from your post.

Adding 10 kids and allowing some of the kids that only got 2 races in would not degrade the competition to the 100% that some divisions get.

You seem to make modifications to increase the field to other divisions as you go but not the breaker boy division. Makes no since to me.


Rule #2- Our target cap per venue is 160 riders per day. As you can see, we exceeded that cap in a couple of areas. We talk to all the venue TS's to determine how many riders each venue can handle. Slopestyle is the toughest for two reasons- one, its the most popular of any event and two, it takes the longest to run per rider. For those of who have been to Nationals, GS and SL are typically the fastest running events. So, we do our best to keep numbers in slope as close to 160 as possible but if the Alpine venues start pushing higher, it's usually not as critical.

Rule #3- In order to make it a true National Championship, there has to be some sort of cutoff in relation to how deep we go into the total membership across the US. To that end, we developed a sliding scale of target percentages based on the total number of competitors. That scale is as follows:
1 - 25 90-100%
25-50 75%
50-75 60%
75-100 50%
100-150 40%
150-200 30%
200+ 25%
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #253

  • ssamuels1
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Jon, as I said, I respect your final decision. Thanks for considering my views.
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Re:Increase the participants in the younger ages 5 years ago #254

  • jason
People also signed up and competed with the knowledge that 40% not 28% would be invited to Nationals as indicated from your post.


People signed up starting in the Summer and throughout the season. I don't believe anyone looked at Jon's post in February and decided whether or not to compete in their Regional events!

Breaker Boys GS has 148 riders in the National Rankings. We have invited down to 65th place so far from the National Rankings. 43% of the riders in the Breaker Boys GS National Rankings have been invited.

Rule #3- In order to make it a true National Championship, there has to be some sort of cutoff in relation to how deep we go into the total membership across the US.
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